Bridget Lumb, PhD, has worked in the Department of Physiology, Pharmacology, and Neuroscience at the University of Bristol, UK, where she is currently a professor of systems neuroscience. Her research focuses on understanding central nervous system mechanisms of pain, including descending control systems that coordinate changes in response to pain, and how different behavioral states, such as anxiety and stress, can contribute to the development of chronic pain. Outside of her own research, she has taken up a variety of roles, most notably as president of The Physiological Society from 2018-2020.
Here, Bridget chats with Alice Gregorie, a PhD student at the University of Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK, and a PRF correspondent, about her research, some of the major challenges within the field of pain research, and the barriers that still face women in academia today. This was not Alice’s first meeting with Bridget. In 2017, Alice had the pleasure of being taught by Bridget at the University of Bristol – specifically, the undergraduate second-year neurophysiology unit run by Bridget in her role as director of the neuroscience BSc and MSc programs, alongside her research commitments as a professor of systems neuroscience. Below is an edited transcript of their conversation.
Would you like to give us a summary of your current research?
I've got a long-standing interest in neural mechanisms of pain. I'm particularly interested in how behavioral states alter pain perception. We've just embarked on a new project, which is funded by the MRC [the UK’s Medical Research Council], that I find very exciting.
Our overall aim is to understand why some individuals are more susceptible to developing chronic pain than others, and what the neural mechanisms may be. We all know that acute pain is very necessary for survival and drives protective reflexes, but at a higher level, it also drives behaviors that promote survival. These involve very complex neural networks and many different regions of the brain. These are the so-called “survival networks.”
For several years now, I've been collaborating with a colleague in Bristol who has an interest in motor systems, particularly in the cerebellum. We brought together this work in motor systems, and my interest in pain systems, in quite a unique combination to look at these survival networks.
The exciting part is that we're now taking this one step further, because in some situations pain can be enhanced, and in others it's suppressed. As you know, this up- or downregulation of a nociceptive signal is mediated partly by descending pathways from the brain. There are centers in the brain that activate descending pathways and can modulate nociceptive transmission very early on in those pathways at the level of the spinal cord. These are called the descending pain modulatory systems, or DPMS. The survival networks, which when activated modulate fear, anxiety, and pain, can engage these DPMS. We want to look further at the clinical relevance of this interaction between survival networks and DPMS, because in some vulnerable individuals, these modulatory systems become abnormal, and they can amplify the pain signals and lead to chronic pain.
Can you share more about the link among pain, fear, and anxiety, and how this could potentially be beneficial for patients?
Some people are more susceptible to the development of chronic pain than others, but vulnerability isn't just in relation to pain. This vulnerability also relates to anxiety disorders, such as post-traumatic stress disorder. A small number of people can't forget or extinguish a fear response to an event that has occurred in the past, and this can manifest in stress disorders. As I've alluded to, anxiety disorders and chronic pain often occur together, and it suggests that they share the same neural networks. In a similar way to anxiety disorders, we are suggesting that the brain fails “to forget.” The memory of a painful stimulus triggers changes in the interactions among survival networks, and could lead to chronic pain and the amplification of the pain signal.
There is some good preliminary behavioral evidence to suggest that this is the case. It has been shown that rats who are less able to extinguish fear are more susceptible to chronic pain. We've been working on fear mechanisms for some time now, and we want to investigate the link among central neural mechanisms that lead to extinction, or not, of a fearful stimulus, and how this might impact the pain control systems. For me, it's a very exciting topic because it is quite new and has the potential to help us understand why some people are more vulnerable to the transition from acute pain, which is very protective and useful, to chronic pain, which can obviously be debilitating.
You became the first female executive committee member of The Physiological Society after assuming the role of meeting secretary in 2002. Why do you think such an appointment took 126 years, and what was your experience undertaking that role?
An important issue, and I can’t emphasize this enough, is the lack of role models. No other woman had ever done it before. If you don’t have role models, you don’t expect, as a woman, to be doing these things.
Why did I end up doing it? I actually did it because I was encouraged by men to do it. I had some very supportive colleagues within The Society. I think, like many others, I suffer from imposter syndrome. It’s important to have colleagues that have the confidence in you and encourage you to take on these roles. Although it’s hard work, and you sometimes have to push yourself into uncomfortable places, it's also incredibly rewarding. You realize that you can do things that you had no idea you could. It also means that you're in a position where you can help other people achieve their ambitions. That is one of the great satisfactions I get out of some of these leadership roles. It means you can encourage people; you can support them to achieve their ambitions. At the same time, you can receive great satisfaction yourself.
Although the proportion of women in senior academic positions is increasing, what, in your view, are the main barriers that women who want to attain these positions still need to overcome?
We cannot deny that women, biologically, are creating families at the very time that they are embarking on perhaps a steep, upward trajectory in their career. This is applicable to many professions. This is obviously not just women's responsibility, but women have to be aware of the support mechanisms within their workplace, or those that could be put in place, and take advantage of them. It's these mechanisms which are becoming increasingly improved in my view. Support structures are being put in place in a very focused and realistic way that enable women to take on these roles.
Still, one of the most important things is role models. One needs role models to demonstrate that it's possible and enjoyable. I think that's the important thing: the fact that it's enjoyable. That it's possible, it's enjoyable, and it's doable. I can remember times when I first started working on various committees within The Physiological Society that it was a very white male-dominated organization, and that I could walk into meetings and frequently be the only woman in the room. That just doesn’t happen these days.
You served as the chair of the Animal Legislation and Welfare committee within The Physiological Society. The UK has some of the most stringent regulations surrounding animal research in the world. Can you offer us your thoughts on these types of regulations?
In principle, I support [these regulations], and I have no problem with them. I think they’re very necessary. Of course, the issue lies with the impact that they might have on the research itself. It's about getting the right balance between having the necessary legislation in place and implementing the three R's (reduction, replacement, and refinement) for the best research. It is very important that these mechanisms are in place, but we must do it in the most user-friendly way that satisfies government, assures the public we are adhering to these regulations, and enables scientists to do the necessary work. This last piece, in my view, is something that's been difficult in the past because the process to make even small changes to your project license could take months. This has not only impeded the research itself, but I can think of many examples where it's impeded the progress of young scientists.
This issue has arisen because the project license required by law can become so complex and torturous that it almost becomes easier for researchers to trip up and contravene what's stipulated in the license. By simplifying [the license], it can remain robust and stringent, but it becomes less likely that somebody will contravene the conditions of their license. It’s getting better, but I know people who've changed their research direction simply because of the licensing. It is becoming more straightforward, but it's taken a lot of effort by a lot of people to get it to that place.
After being the first woman to serve as an Executive Committee member of The Physiological Society, you went on to serve as its president from 2018-2020. What do you think was your greatest achievement in that role?
I felt the major achievement was increasing diversity and inclusivity within the society, and that was facilitated in a couple of ways. First, we undertook a governance review. We looked at all the ways in which we operated, the structures of our committees … everything to do with the way The Society was run, and we revised that. We put more appropriate structures in place. We ensured we had diversity, and I'm not just talking about women, but also BAME (Black, Asian, and Minority Ethnic), religious, and other socioeconomic issues. We were able to increase diversity, and awareness of the need to increase diversity, because there is an element in any society/profession of unknown bias, so increasing awareness was very important.
After your achievements as both president-elect and president of The Physiological Society, if you had had more time, what were other goals you would have liked to attain?
With a two-year lead in, and then two years executing the role, you need time to understand the organization, time to understand what your ambitions are within that organization, and time to have some sort of impact. I felt I'd achieved enough and had left The Society in a place where I wanted it to be before handing it over to somebody else, and now they've taken it in their direction. The important thing is that when you step out of these roles, you don't meddle. Step out, and let the next generation get on with it.
Since stepping down from the role of The Physiological Society president, you have returned to your position as the director of the neuroscience programs at the University of Bristol after a gap of 20 years. How has the experience been for you?
I’ve really enjoyed my teaching, and I’ll tell you why: It’s because I’ve got the time to do it. I have more time to interact with students, but that has been facilitated in a way because of the pandemic and the need to change the way in which we teach, such as putting a lot of our materials online in a meaningful way for the students.
In the past, there might be years when you say, “Well, I'll just update that lecture,” and then you just haven’t got the time … you’ve got all these other things to do. Of course, during the pandemic, there was no excuse. You had to do it. I think as a result, a lot of the teaching, and a lot of the content of the teaching that we've put online, is an improvement on what we delivered before. We've had to think about it, and we've had to bring ourselves into the 21st century.
What are your next steps in terms of your research and your academic roles?
I’m going to be a regular academic again, so I’m going to be focusing on my teaching, my research in the lab, and management roles such as running the neuroscience program. As I approach this stage in my career, I think I'll be able to indulge myself again in helping researchers who I have influence with to achieve their ambitions, because I'm in a position to do that.
Alice Gregorie is a third-year PhD student at the University of Leeds, UK. Her project currently focuses on pain-based neuronal communication within the peripheral nervous system.